This is the discussion page about Dur-An-Ki. You may contribute in any way you see fit:

Merging with Assamite SorceryEdit

I think Assamite Sorcery should be merged with this article; while it's true that Assamites are not the only practitioners of Dur-An-Ki, the differences between their practices and those described in this article seem inconsequential. A brief note, at most a single paragraph after the introduction of this article, would suffice to explain the differences between the terms, and Assamite Sorcery should be redirected here (and removed from the template).

I think this should be the main article as it's the more accurate term for the magical style; on the other hand, more people would use Assamite Sorcery, so there's also a pretty good argument to be made for that to be the merged article's name.

Hence why I'm floating it here. Please discuss! -- Guybrush 07:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

...well, given no-one else seems to have an opinion, I'm merging the articles now, under Dur-An-Ki. Assamite Sorcery will still exist as a redirect. -- Guybrush 04:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Didn't comment before because I don't have any Assamite books, but I'm all for it. Have you removed Assamite Sorcery from the {{VTMdisciplines}} template? --Ian talk 15:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes, don't worry. I confess I'm having second thoughts, though; not about the merge - I definitely think there should be only one article - but about the title. Perhaps this should be under Assamite Sorcery, since we list Setite Sorcery rather than Ahku... Still, now they're merged it's an easy job to change it over, and the text now uses both names, so it'll be clear. -- Guybrush 00:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Dur-An-Ki PathsEdit

User has added 2 paths to Dur-An-Ki that were never mentioned by any of the books. They are the following:

  • Path of Transmutation - the book mentions Thaumaturgical Alchemy as being part of the Dur-An-Ki doctrine (which is described in the article). The Path of Transmutation is almost exactly the same as Thaumaturgical Alchemy (except for Level 4), therefore, in my opinion there's no reason to put it there - because it's redundant and because it was never actually mentioned by name.
  • Thaumaturgical Countermagic - no book has ever mentioned this path as being part of the Dur-An-Ki teachings, however, user argues that both Cretheus and Al-Ashrad have it in their respective character sheets.

However, one could argue that both these sorcerers are extremely old and knowledgeable methuselahs, that have the power and time to develop their own exclusive forms of blood magic (this is specially true in the case of Cret, for it is explicitly stated in his biography). My point is, that absolutely no thaumaturgical knowledge is beyond these two characters, and the fact that they were able to learn Thaumaturgical Countermagic doesn't mean that its common knowledge among the Dur-An-Ki blood magicians (I believe that the authors would remember to point out such a thing, don't you?)

Ok folks, that's today's subject. It would be nice if we discuss this before we change the article.

(Russel Hammond (talk) 16:14, January 26, 2015 (UTC))

Dur An Ki CountermagicEdit

concerning thaumaturgical countermagic.
obscure or not even if just 2 people know it(i doubt it), it still means they managed to integrate it to their belief system dur an ki(to use a mage term,their paradigm)
even if we assume that the tremere were it's originators it doesn't matter.
plus logically i find it unlikely to say the least that none had thought of countermagic before clan tremere.
finally we do know that these are explicitly not all the paths the assamite know(clanbook assamite revised) 10:10, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

First things first: you understand that this is all speculation on your part, and that this is Wiki is canon, right?

Although the concept of "paradigm" does not apply to vampires, its certainly true that the methuselahs you mentioned were able to integrate the countermagic to their belief system. However, as I said before, no thaumaturgical knowledge is beyond these characters, and Cret's biography explicitly states that he was able to adapt the ideas of the greek philosophers into magical use as well.

So, tell me: would you say that just because Cret has applied greek philosophy concepts to blood magic, every other Dur-An-Ki practitioner would be able to (by association) display these abilities as they were common knowledge? It doesnt make sense to me.

That being said, I believe its perfectly possible for a Dur-An-Ki thaumaturge to develop countermagic - but it would require considerable research and individual effort (not to mention talent). This path was never mentioned by any book, therefore its safe to assume that it is not part of the doctrine of that particular branch of Blood Magic.
Russel Hammond (talk) 17:37, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

I think paradigm does exist even if not mentioned by name.

anyway what youre saying is that cret's magic is semi mercuric or hermetic i suppose it may be so but is it writtern anywhere that all blood mages of a particular school must share the exact same beliefs? going by the rules if i made an assamite sorcerer character who serves cret ,he would be able to teach me that path. plus al-Ashrad also has it.

anyway i will agree that i don't have any hard canon to back it up.

i just personally think that if even one person has it then technically speaking it's part of that school of magic.  whether or not is easily accessible is another thing entirely.

for instance the tremere are also said to be rather conservative about who they teach countermagic. 22:09, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

As for the blood mages of a particular school, they share the same tenets, yes. Maybe not the same beliefs (and that's why there are differences between the schools of thaumaturgical knowledge), but definetely the same fundamental principles of blood magic. They are not actually affected by a mage's paradigm (that is well known throughout the books), although their schools of magic exist under a similar principle.

However, the power of the blood seem to know no limits, and, with enough study and talent, virtually any effect can be emulated by the thaumaturge. That doesn't mean that any specifical knowledge is part of a determinate school of magic, or else we would witness Tremere vampires developing thaumaturgical powers like Mortis or even Assamite sorcerers developing powers like Sielanic Thaumaturgy in a regular basis, but that's NOT the case (even if they have the potential to do so).

A similar argument could be made outside the blood mage's circles, regarding any other vampire. Think about it: just because the Ventrue Rebekah was able to learn disciplines like Obfuscate and Celerity, it doesn't mean that this knowledge is part of that clan's culture. Don't you agree?

Russel Hammond (talk) 14:20, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

first of all, being new to this wiki could you tell me how do i respond on the talk page with out making a new subject/headline? if i choose the option talk it only gets me to a page to talk to you directly.

back to the topic. my knowledge of it is a bit rusty but by paradigm we mean a mystic's beliefs and assumptions about the world and magic right?  these things do exist for vampires i think.

for instance if my tremere is doing a ritual that requires him to use alchemical tools(foci) she is not just mixing things randomly thinking"whatever let's put this in"

"However, the power of the blood seem to know no limits,"  again i believe the same could be said about the power of a mage. my point is that these 2 elements are very similar.

the difference between an assamite learning potence and learning countermagic is(if im not mistakes) that in the second case they would actually have to integrate it in their belief system and explain how they do it in terms of said belief system.

for instance is is said in some books that" just because 2 paths are effectively the same doesn't mean that one could learn it from a blood mage of a different magic school. it's alien gibberish to her."

this is an extreme view that i ignore and thankfully v20rites of blood says(IIRC) that it simply takes more time to "translate" a ritual. and presumably a path as well. after all the path of mercury is a converted sadhana path.

the point is that it's not the same as learning a random discipline ,that is essentially an inherent power of the blood.  i don't know this wiki a lot but perhaps we could list it with a note that it is "uncertain ground"? it would not be the first article.

sorry if it seems that i insist a lot i can assure you i am not trolling or anything i am honestly just trying to improve the wiki. 21:10, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

Talk page issue: next to the button "Add Topic" there's an arrow. Click in it and you'll see the "Edit" option. Click in it and choose "Source" (this is optional) and be happy.

Paradigm issue: in Mage: the Ascension, the paradigm of a sorceror is not only what you described, but a collective belief used to overcome the power of Consensus. It is very difficult (and dangerous) for a single mage to bend the consensus without it - while vampires dont have that problem. The concept you aplied to thaumaturges share some similarities with paradigm, but also many differences.

Main issue: as you can see in my previous comments, I said a thaumaturge has the potential to adapt virtually any effect of blood magic to their respective school given time, research and talent.

Your argument says that just because a specific vampire did managed to adapt an specific concept, it becomes automatically part of that school of magic. It doesn't. A Tremere blood magician may learn the Awakening the Steel, but that path would still not be part of his magical tradition.

I never meant to say disciplines are exactly the same as blood magic (blood magic are pseudo-disciplines, actually), I just wanted to show you that vampires have a wide array of abilities/powers that not always reflect their respective group's traditional beliefs and practices.

perhaps we could list it with a note that it is "uncertain ground"? it would not be the first article.: all paths listed in the article come with a solid reference next to them. Why should we add a path that has no reference at all?

However, we could add a comment saying "Although it is still possible to them, students of Assamite Sorcery have great difficulty learning the practices of other blood magic traditions. All experience points costs to learn other blood magic paths and rituals are increased by half (round up) for Assamite sorcerers. In addition, even once the sorcerer has incorporated these lessons into her repertoire, they are still alien to her. All invocations of a “foreign” path require one extra blood point and all rituals take triple the normal time and require one extra success for any desired result." (Vampire: The Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition, p. 440)

I'll add this excert at once (as it is canon). Maybe later you can tell me you think about it.

Russel Hammond (talk) 15:36, February 27, 2015 (UTC)

in your opinion at which point does a path become a part of a blood magic school? for instance the path of mercury was explicitly adopted from a sadhana path.

finally speaking about canon one book(thaumaturgy companion i think) says that "an ashipu may learn anything that is not explicitly mentioned as a tremere suggestion"(ok the wording is not exactly the same but you get the idea)

now,im definetely not suggesting that we add almost every tremere path to the dur an ki list. but we could add that specific line i think.

oh and by the way when i see sth in the wiki that i think is wrong should i start a talk page to determine whether to change it or do i change it myself stating the reasons and if people disagree we change it back? im not familiar if there is any wiki rule about this. 22:32, February 27, 2015 (UTC)

A path becomes part of a blood magic school when its traditionally practiced by the mainstream followers of said tradition. A "magical school" is nothing more than a traditional way of doing magic (by definition, "tradition" is the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation). In game terms, a path becomes part of a 'blood magic school', when the book explicitly says so. Apart from that, we have no way of judging it.

--->The book you mentioned (Thaumaturgy companion, you think) doesn't say nothing new. Nothing that I haven't said here in this talk page (look above for the words "virtually" and "potential"). Your first thought was correct, deducing we could add virtually ANY path to the list. So we cannot add this one, because there's no canon sources that mention it as part of Dur-An-Ki (and if there were, I would be the first to put it there).

Talk page question: this wiki has the same rules of all wikis. You should start a talk page when the subject is contested. You can make any edits you want, as long as you are backed up by canon references (always use references). I strongly suggest you create a profile for yourself ASAP.

Russel Hammond (talk) 15:49, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

Gifts of Faith and Gifts of the HeartEdit

there are 2 more paths that i think need to be added, gifts of faith and gifts of the heart. they are from sihr in Veil of Night.

1) the book says in a side bar that they were integrated into dur an ki.(indeed it even implies a partial thaumaturgical integration)

2) even before. this integration happens an assamite sorceror can still learn them at a+2 difficulty penalty. 22:32, February 27, 2015 (UTC)

1) If the book says they were integrated into Dur-An-Ki, you may add the paths normally to the article, citing the reference right next to it (book and page), following the example of the other editors. No problems here.

2) maybe that information is redundant because of the last comment I inserted in the article (from V20, p. 400).

Russel Hammond (talk) 15:49, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

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